> One key feature of Flock is its national lookup tool.
> Axon, simply, does not have a national network. Meaning that it would not be possible for cops in one jurisdiction to search cameras across the country.
> Police departments using Axon can enter into data sharing agreements with each other, though.
> Denver, just like the City of Ferndale, explicitly mentioned this lack of this national network as part of its decision to ditch Flock for Axon.
This (probably alongside all the bad press Flock has gotten) appears to be the crux of the switching. Ultimately, the tech actually being deployed seems similar.
Also interesting:
> One reason why journalists, activists, and residents have been able to learn so much about what police use Flock for is that the company has built auditing tools that the public can access through records requests.
wolfi1 33 minutes ago [-]
it took Last Week Tonight years to get these records in one particular case
Generally, silly jokes but a very serious research and fact checking team.
ortusdux 4 minutes ago [-]
Also one heck of a legal team.
FireBeyond 28 minutes ago [-]
How long before Axon turns data sharing "opt out"?
> One reason why journalists, activists, and residents have been able to learn so much about what police use Flock for is that the company has built auditing tools that the public can access through records requests.
As someone else says, "in theory". Also of note, their "Transparency Portal" is... not. I know of at least three agencies in my County who are using Flock who are not listed on the Transparency Portal...
pphysch 29 minutes ago [-]
This is a step in the right direction. Everyone hates public surveillance until they become the victim of a crime, but it's critical that the surveillance is owned and controlled fully on an appropriate level.
You should fully own and control your home security cameras. Right now many homeowners are shipping their data to national datacenters.
Municipalities should fully own and control their public security cameras, on municipal datacenter resources.
Data sharing / federation should always be intentional and time-bound. It should be impossible for a small town cop to unilaterally access security records from a random city he has no jurisdiction in.
gilthelander 25 minutes ago [-]
> You should fully own and control your home security cameras. Right now many homeowners are shipping their data to national datacenters.
In practice it's difficult to do and offer remote access.
asteroidburger 17 minutes ago [-]
It’s not a technical limitation. Nobody sees the need to build it that way though.
gilthelander 27 minutes ago [-]
What is the point of ALPRs if not for the database capability? To prove small town Sally the real estate agent is cheating with Bill the bank manager?
zeeveener 23 minutes ago [-]
It forces a paper trail of warrants and other "official" pathways that we would normally consider proper policing.
If another district wants to ask a question, they have to follow the appropriate chain of command and use the correct tools.
Flock appears to have been a way for them to work around all of that and just answer any question they had willy-nilly.
dave78 39 minutes ago [-]
Vendor doesn't matter. The same issues will exist. Public safety is all about aggregating data to "operationalize" it now, so all vendors will be collecting data and sharing it with all customers just like Flock. The only benefit is that for the moment, other vendors' networks are small compared to Flock.
cyanydeez 37 minutes ago [-]
republicans got their government small enough that business and religion can drown it.
dave78 26 minutes ago [-]
Flock cameras are everywhere all over my very blue area in a blue state with new ones appearing every day. I really don't think this is a Republican/Democrat issue.
And I think as people are learning about it, they are outraged across the political spectrum; perhaps we should capitalized on that instead of trying to turn it into a red/blue thing.
ihsw 30 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
mirmor23 15 minutes ago [-]
> Axon, for example, advertises AI-powered cameras that attach to an existing streetlamp and are designed to completely blend in with their surroundings, and also collects license plate data with cameras installed inside police officers’ patrol vehicles
If anything this will make it go from bad to worse along all axes -- decentralized sharing, making it harder to track data request/usage, hide surveillance in an infrastructure that is considered essential, and host of other things..
xkcd-sucks 29 minutes ago [-]
> One reason why journalists, activists, and residents have been able to learn so much about what police use Flock for is that the company has built auditing tools that the public can access through records requests. ... It is not clear if the same granularity of data can be learned about Axon systems, although it does allow agencies to generate audit reports.
> Axon’s documentation for its ALPR product, a “shared data” option “extends the query to partner-agency detections once a sharing relationship is active.”
Axon develops a data marketplace to streamline so-called lawful sharing of data, or acquires it via Flock and rebrands the network name. Audit capabilities are removed to streamline operational efficiency and reduce political risk. The public is no better off than before.
neura 26 minutes ago [-]
Worse off, if anything.
RobotToaster 32 minutes ago [-]
Out of the frying pan...
SoftTalker 42 minutes ago [-]
Prediction: Flock acquires Axon.
advisedwang 29 minutes ago [-]
Axon is a public company with market cap of $50B. It is an incumbent with a huge business in bodycams and tasers with a huge number of US police departments. Flock has a $7.5B valuation at it's last funding round, and is the new comer.
More likely for Axon to acquire flock than the other way around.
yieldcrv 24 minutes ago [-]
half cash, half stock
cdrnsf 40 minutes ago [-]
Soon: Flock branded tasers.
andrei_says_ 28 minutes ago [-]
Even better: see Wim Wenders’ The End of Violence.
tamimio 14 minutes ago [-]
PTZ tasers!
echelon 40 minutes ago [-]
They're a public company with a $50B market cap. That's not going to happen.
The direction would be the other way around. Axon is showing that they want the market, that they can build the tech themselves, and that they can leverage their extensive existing relationships with law enforcement and municipal governments as sales channels.
mrexroad 30 minutes ago [-]
My city has a contract with Flock, but the rest of their tech “stack” is Axon based. I’ll be surprised if they don’t change ALPR to Axon at first chance.
SoftTalker 22 minutes ago [-]
In fact they are probably already using Axon ALPR in their police vehicles. That technology has existed for a while, even before Flock's fixed cameras became widespread.
I find it slightly less objectionable, as the chances that I drive by Flock's cameras every day are nearly 100% but the chances that I'm within visual range of a police car are much lower and more random.
throwawayZ151 30 minutes ago [-]
Correct directional analysis - but Axon already has competing products and is demonstrating here that they don’t need to acquire Flock to take market share. I am very doubtful of an acquisition.
Axon just replaces Flock in some places. But I forgot to say that it probably doesn't matter much, and that whatever anyone resents about the whole thing, will just get worse.
Cider9986 34 minutes ago [-]
These are literally city councils in many places. They're not our overlords.
crest 30 minutes ago [-]
They really want people to get e-ink license plates don't they?
gruez 16 minutes ago [-]
The ones that are illegal to use and stick out like a sore thumb?
All of Winona Police Department's Flock cameras cut down and stolen
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49171656
257 comments
Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49184190
202 comments
How Cops Are Trying to Hide Their Use of Flock
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49172076
10 comments
Flock's CEO Faced Me After Its Cameras Led to My Wrongful Stop
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49156650
118 comments
Flock – Chilling Effects: Long Island's Emerging Open-Air Prison
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49148541
40 comments
Leaked Flock Guide Shows How It Teaches Cops to Promote Its Tech
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49158837
17 comments
> Axon, simply, does not have a national network. Meaning that it would not be possible for cops in one jurisdiction to search cameras across the country. > Police departments using Axon can enter into data sharing agreements with each other, though.
> Denver, just like the City of Ferndale, explicitly mentioned this lack of this national network as part of its decision to ditch Flock for Axon.
This (probably alongside all the bad press Flock has gotten) appears to be the crux of the switching. Ultimately, the tech actually being deployed seems similar.
Also interesting:
> One reason why journalists, activists, and residents have been able to learn so much about what police use Flock for is that the company has built auditing tools that the public can access through records requests.
Generally, silly jokes but a very serious research and fact checking team.
> One reason why journalists, activists, and residents have been able to learn so much about what police use Flock for is that the company has built auditing tools that the public can access through records requests.
As someone else says, "in theory". Also of note, their "Transparency Portal" is... not. I know of at least three agencies in my County who are using Flock who are not listed on the Transparency Portal...
You should fully own and control your home security cameras. Right now many homeowners are shipping their data to national datacenters.
Municipalities should fully own and control their public security cameras, on municipal datacenter resources.
Data sharing / federation should always be intentional and time-bound. It should be impossible for a small town cop to unilaterally access security records from a random city he has no jurisdiction in.
In practice it's difficult to do and offer remote access.
If another district wants to ask a question, they have to follow the appropriate chain of command and use the correct tools.
Flock appears to have been a way for them to work around all of that and just answer any question they had willy-nilly.
And I think as people are learning about it, they are outraged across the political spectrum; perhaps we should capitalized on that instead of trying to turn it into a red/blue thing.
If anything this will make it go from bad to worse along all axes -- decentralized sharing, making it harder to track data request/usage, hide surveillance in an infrastructure that is considered essential, and host of other things..
> Axon’s documentation for its ALPR product, a “shared data” option “extends the query to partner-agency detections once a sharing relationship is active.”
Axon develops a data marketplace to streamline so-called lawful sharing of data, or acquires it via Flock and rebrands the network name. Audit capabilities are removed to streamline operational efficiency and reduce political risk. The public is no better off than before.
More likely for Axon to acquire flock than the other way around.
The direction would be the other way around. Axon is showing that they want the market, that they can build the tech themselves, and that they can leverage their extensive existing relationships with law enforcement and municipal governments as sales channels.
I find it slightly less objectionable, as the chances that I drive by Flock's cameras every day are nearly 100% but the chances that I'm within visual range of a police car are much lower and more random.
Axon just replaces Flock in some places. But I forgot to say that it probably doesn't matter much, and that whatever anyone resents about the whole thing, will just get worse.